I read today that Michael Guglielmucci has been lying about his cancer. You can read all about it at News.com.au. Basically it has been confirmed that he lied – but here is the part that amazed me:
This news has come as a great shock to everyone including, it seems, his own wife and family,” Hillsong general manager George Aghajanian said in an email to his congregation yesterday.
How can your wife not know that you don’t have bone cancer? I’m not saying that there is some conspiracy here, but there is only one sort of person that can get away with faking a terminal illness to people who are close and care about them, and that is a practiced pathological liar. I say this means that he has been lying for a long time, and got so good at it that he managed to convince even those closest to him that he was dying of an illness that he didn’t have. Kind of like Frank Abagnale Jr. from the movie Catch Me If You Can (imdb), a man who made millions pretending to be a solicitor and a pilot.
Someone must have been suspicious, someone must have noticed something, but it seems like nobody said anything. We tend to assume that someone must have checked it out, he is on a stage, so it must be fine right?
Here is the Hillsong video – tubes up his nose and everything. At the moment Hillsong seem to be trying to take this down, so if it goes missing, I will try to find a replacement.
EDIT I can’t find another video – some poor intern at Hillsong must be working 16 hour days filing copyright claims with every video host on the planet.
So when did Michael start lying, and how did he perfect the art?
I read this in a forum post at gush.com.au from 2006:
when i heard he was sick, i laughed… not because i am happy he is sick, but because while he was at our church he was healed of:
Glandular Fever
Blood Clot in his brain
Brain Tumor
Burst Ear Drum
That’s right, isn’t it amazing that one man can have so many severe illnesses miraculously cured by God. Another post in that thread claimed to have seen his broken leg healed on stage. Now I actually believe that God can and does heal people, but it seems likely to me that Michael has been faking it for a long time, and that christians are so eager to have their “faith confirmed” in front of them that they jump and cheer at anything that seems to fit the bill.
I remember a man that preached at a church I used to go to (Gateway City Church in Wollongong). He was going to heal people’s backs, and he did this by sitting someone in a seat on stage, looking at their legs, declaring that one was longer than the other (there was someone from the church helping him and agreeing that the legs were not the same length). Then he got all the young children from the church to come down the front (the stage is over a meter high). Then he prayed, and said that the legs were the same length now, the other guy on stage agreed, and the “healed” walked around and said they felt better. But then he asked the children to confirm to the congregation that it had actually happened.
The whole congregation cheered wildly at the kids saying that it happened, despite the fact that it was completely impossible for any of the kids to have seen what happened, or had any idea if there was a change in the legs. Who knows, maybe the people were healed – but why the show? Why pretend to have kids witness something? The whole situation makes a mockery of the word proof.
So here is the challenge – just because a person says they have proved something, doesn’t mean that there is any proof at all. Just because someone is on stage doesn’t mean they are telling the truth. Just because you aren’t in charge doesn’t mean you don’t have a responsibility to the truth – if something stinks, then find the rot and deal with it.
hey, i dont think it was necessary to publish the name of the church. That church has a good rep now, so that must have been some time ago, and by naming the church your shaming it. We should be building up other churches. Yes there is a time when some churches do dodgy things, but they are dealt with and dont need to be publicised.
Comment by Alyssa — August 21, 2008 @ 6:14 am
Hi Alyssa, It was maybe 6 months ago? I have had a radical idea, that maybe things need to be told publicly for there to be any change. I don’t think I was overly negative about that church – I was attending there for something like 5 years, and still have a bunch of friends there, and I still think its a great church. We should live in the light of truth, not the light of optimism – how many people thought there was something dodgy about Michael G, but didn’t say anything because they assumed that if there was something going on, that it would be dealt with, or that someone else would have discerned it? I know that have I tended to think like that. I think that Christians should be concerned with truth, justice and mercy, and not with reputation.
Comment by waytruthlies — August 21, 2008 @ 7:42 am
I think you’re doing an amazing thing.
God does not wish abuse and lies in His church to be hidden in the dark – he is all about truth and light. Jesus didn’t make moves to hide what the hypocrisy of the Pharisees – He called them out on it.
Modern Christianity has a bad name for a reason, and who is going to change it if nobody will speak truth into the situation?
Good job
Comment by N — August 21, 2008 @ 7:58 am
I feel sorry for Mike. Yes what he did is not right, but the tough question will be how will the national church leadership deal with this. Will the Guglielmucci family be shamed and left out on a limb or will the church do what it’s supposed to do and actually care enough to help people through their problems. We may be good at helping new christians sort through their troubles, but not always good at helping those who have been christians for a long time deal with things. Everybody is watching, so I hope they do this right. I’ve know of a few disciplinary actions and they are not always the same. Some are looked after, others are left feeling alone and abandoned. Another thought is what sort of church are we or what sort of leadership are we producing when someone else in leadership does not have anyone that they believe they can trust with their struggles, because believe me, we all have our struggles. Unfortunately for Mike his is now splashed across Australia. If it was any ole lay person in a church there would be no attention. Let’s pray that this is dealt with properly, that the Guglielmucci family sort things through and grow stronger from this and the fear of God comes back into the church.
Comment by marie — August 21, 2008 @ 8:08 am
I reckon all things work together for good and God will use this as a wake up call for the church to rise up as the real church He’s called us to be. For too long we’ve been to airy fairy and we just have to become transparant and real. Some of my youth from church have been hurt and become bitter by this news, but this just teaches us to keep our eyes on Jesus, not on man. As Mal Fletcher said about the situation, “Perhaps the first thing we must take from the fall of a leader is the fact that the frailty of the messenger does not negate the authority or truth of the message”.
Comment by Paolo — August 21, 2008 @ 8:43 am
I agree. The Christian Church is supposed to stand for “the” truth; to conceal falsity is to promote something much less than “the” acceptable standard. Unfortunately it seems that the charismatic (never mind the “charismanic”) approach to our faith has a way of building things that eventual topple over, whether people, novel doctrines or practices. Very sad.
Comment by Ian T. — August 21, 2008 @ 8:43 am
Agree entirely; i was at that service when the leg was healed, ane mike was always reminding the congregation of the many healing’s he has had.
To me it sounds like it was a long term behaviour pattern, and I most definitely doubt that noone else knew.
I hope it all gets exposed.
Comment by Mice — August 21, 2008 @ 7:47 pm
I once went to a church where the pastor prayed for me – hand on forehead and as he prayed progressively increased the pressure. I felt like I was about to fall over (this was before I realised that’s what I was ‘meant’ to do). So after all his fervent praying and pushing failed to make me hit the deck, he proclaimed “See that this young man’s leg was bent but is now straight as he stands before you Lord” or something like that. Of course, the reason my leg was so straight was to try to stop myself being pushed over. Churches are full of too much ‘smoke and mirrors’ – staged wonders to make everyone excited etc. Here’s a novel idea – How about preach from the Bible and get them excited about the truth instead of the song and dance routines every Sunday.
Comment by GorGar — August 21, 2008 @ 8:01 pm
hey gorgar. sure the bible is one of the most important things but worship (song) is still a big part of living for God. i know churchs can make it a show but as long as Gods name is being lifted not someone else i think God is cool with it.
Comment by justin — August 21, 2008 @ 8:59 pm
Check out the ‘still praying for Mike’ group on Facebook.
They really want everyone to pray for poor Mike and his family
This stuff is incredible.
Why aren’t these people jailed?
Comment by Tanya Levin — August 21, 2008 @ 9:49 pm
I am not saying this is the case with Mike G…but there are medical conditions called conversion disorders/psychogenic disorders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_disorder) where the person really believes that they have a medical condition, and therefore most of their friends/family beleive also. Again…in the case of Mike it may be a condition like this or plain deception. I guess we wait and see.
Comment by LI — August 21, 2008 @ 10:02 pm
Hey Tanya, sure the guy did something wrong, but its when we are at our most broken we probably need the most prayer, grace and forgiveness and besides spare a thought for what it must be like for his close family and friends, a pretty painful experience I’d imagine. so yeah why not pray for him? can’t hurt can it?
Comment by suze — August 21, 2008 @ 10:16 pm
I don’t believe for a second that his wife didn’t know about this deception.
Comment by Anon — August 21, 2008 @ 10:32 pm
His sister was involved in the Mercy Ministries scandal. Unfortunately, this sort of lying and deception seems to run in the family.
Comment by Anon — August 21, 2008 @ 11:11 pm
Just to be clear, are you saying that you went to church with Mike and that he claimed he was healed of a busted ear drum, a brain tumor, a blood clot in his brain, and glandular fever? How long did you go to church with him? Was he in leadership at the time? Was there any suspicion then? Just wondering.
Comment by joe — August 21, 2008 @ 11:12 pm
l am angry because the evidence clearly suggests this has been going on for years…….that he has had some sort of problem. surely those around him must have known… l know when my husband blows his nose and has a drink… surly there is more to the story…. l have nursed my mum through cancer and there are alot of doctors ect, l smell a rat… l think there is more stuff yet to be uncovered… the press will have a field day with this.
Comment by Tanya — August 21, 2008 @ 11:24 pm
I was in Mike’s youth leadership team for about three years in Melbourne. I always felt like there was something wrong with things and I didn’t feel right. However I just doubted myself and thought, “oh, I have a problem or something.” Now I realize that I and no one else really helped him. No one was actually brave enough to stand up to him or call him on anything. I feel really sorry and I am learning from this that just because someone has a loud voice, gifting and charisma…it means absolutely nothing.
In my limited, uneducated opinion, I think everyone was so busy glorifying pastor Mike and telling him he was the fourth member of the trinity we all failed to realize that he was broken and desperately seeking the need for attention, affirmation and acceptance. Gee, we were all so busy trying to get him to accept us! I take onboard some responsibility for this and I am going to learn from this sittuation, not to be quiet but to speak up. I remember being told that I have an independent spirit. Well at this moment I damn well wish I could’ve gone with that. Maybe Mike would’ve hated my guts but maybe it would’ve been worth it.
Jesus is big enough to turn this around in your life and in Mike’s life. Be angry if you feel it, be hurt if you feel hurt, but make sure you do it with God because He is gonna turn this situation around. “For God works all things together for good for those who are called and live according to his purposes.” So live, and love more than you have ever loved before. Let the emotion of this fuel you to stand up and praise God excessively. Don’t give up okay, cause I’m not.
Comment by abi reddey — August 21, 2008 @ 11:30 pm
i cannot believe her deceived us all like that. i forgive him with all my heart and i pray that he will get right with god, but i will learn to look up to god more than a pastor again. god speed mike.
Comment by David Saunders — August 22, 2008 @ 12:09 am
To those who feel it was wrong to publish the name of the church, I suggest the church should be absolutely accountable, utterly transparent. We are witnesses for Christ, afterall. Secondly, this was no mere personal failing. This man deliberately deceived the church. Scripture does not take such sin lightly, and nor should we. Sometimes anger is righteous.
Comment by Ella — August 22, 2008 @ 12:20 am
We all fail and have our weaknesses. Since none of us actually know the whole situation, perhaps less judgment would be wise.
You assumed his wife was part of this scheme and then accusing that deceptions and lies runs in the family – now that is unfair and uncalled for.
I’m not saying that we turn a blind eye to what has happened, but judging & accusing is not going to change anything.
Where is the grace and mercy… you Christians judge so harshly, no wonder people refuse to step into a church. Some of you are casting stones and it’s killing Mike’s family.
And by the way.. when you forgive someone, you don’t have to announce it to the world.
Comment by JL — August 22, 2008 @ 1:39 am
Pointing fingers, accusing and trying to figure out who is to blame never solved any problems. It’s probably the cause of quite a few. Instead of pointing blame at people we should be finding a solution. Each person that has been hurt should find a solution to this problem. Instead of filling the air with gun smoke we should try to resolve the situation not prolong it.
Comment by JD — August 22, 2008 @ 2:27 am
I am so grieved by this situation. It is so painful to see this kind of thing happen, especially to someone who is so public. I can’t imagine what intense confusion and deception Mike must have been in to walk this out for so long. I think we have to realize that he will receive his share of discipline from his oversight,media and critics. We must pray that Jesus will watch over his family and restore mike’s life. If we do not forgive, how can we be forgiven. Sin is Sin and we all have plenty of our own.
God forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Comment by canadacook — August 22, 2008 @ 3:48 am
This is a real shocker to us but we need to be reminded God is just, nothing is hidden from Him and He sure will reveal everything to His people. Let’s still pray for this pastor and for his family.
Comment by deb — August 22, 2008 @ 5:43 am
Possibly hundreds of thousands in offerings have been collected for Michael…..he should publicly apologise to the thousands who have in faith contributed assistance to him. Like he has travelled the world accepting assistance, he should now travel preaching forgiveness. This way he can be forgiven and we have the opportunity to forgive!
Comment by Sev — August 22, 2008 @ 6:03 am
We need to be humble and seek Gods insight in all we do. What has happened shows mans betrayal to God and us, but God has allowed it to happen and God has allowed it to be revealed at this time, we need to seek God for his wisdom and what we need to learn from this.
Some things that stand out for me are that we may need to stop glorifying man on the stage, stop putting man in the spot light, but learn to be more humble.
We need to learn to humbly seek and serve our father in heaven through the blood of Jesus Christ.
This is some chapters in scripture I have been lead to:
Ecclesiastes 3, Galatians 6, Philippians 2, Hebrews 11
Comment by Petrina — August 22, 2008 @ 8:06 am
The AOG Leadership must have known about the ‘miracles’ this son of an AOG Exec member experienced in the past.
It seems that this was not his first major illness.
So many questions … Was somebody else working with this fraud? How to you get an oxygen bottle anyway? Did his wife /father visit him in hospital when he had treatment? See the results of tests? Is his newfound ‘mental illness’ also a fraud? Where did he learn the craft of stage deception and hypocrisy from?
Talk with his doctors? C’mon give me a break people.
The AOG has been getting way with fraud for years. It still cannot articulate its doctrine on Tithing using accepted principles of interpretation (ie. good exegesis or hermeneutics). Most Churches (eg. Hillsong) will not provide detailed audited financials upon request. These pastors exchange large amounts of money on the ‘networked’ speaking circuit into tax-free ministry accounts that they and their families control. Many Churches are handed down the family line – like inherited family owned Businesses.
Grace is the order of the day. But as Christians let not park our brains at the Church door. St Paul ordered us to flee from dodgy leaders.
Comment by Lionfish — August 22, 2008 @ 8:13 am
I’ve been a member of Edge church from day dot. I love God, i want the truth and have always asked God to help keep me real! I want the truth, i hate the shows and the loud screaming music thats pushed down our necks in church.
For some reason God has wanted me to remain at Edge Church, probably because I, myself needed to learn something about Edge that was in me. What’s the saying ” same spirit attracks the same”?
To be really honest, nothing of Edge church has ever sat comfortably with me. There are so many why’s.
To me, and God please pull me up with this if i’m wrong, but Edge church is all about the money, the fame, the ego, and wow what egos!
That’s why God wanted me to remain at Edge. I needed to learn that the failings within Edge were in me too!
We have all got something to learn and we all fall sort of the glory, we all fail.
It all comes down to this scripture.1 Peter 5,8.
Let he without sin cast the first stone! Yup, who are we to judge, but we all need to learn and move on and seek the truth of God, not the truth of an insecure church screaming our for attention.
Comment by Jo — August 22, 2008 @ 8:30 am
I suspect that there is something systemically wrong with the AOG in this regard. The AOG measures success by attendance numbers (quantity, at the expense of quality) and it doesn’t surprise me that someone so charismatic found success for so long.
Is this so unusual? No. We can look at the number of instances of child abuse in the Catholic Church and deduce something similar. There is probably something systemically wrong with the Catholic Church too.
Some action needs to be taken with regard to both the system of the AOG and the individual who made the choice to deceive.
Comment by Andrew — August 22, 2008 @ 8:47 am
The problem is that in these churches brains are switched off and when this happens anything at all is possible! If you insist on beleiving in fairies, I have a bridge you maybe interested in buying. It is going cheap.
Mike G. was conman and you guys got conned – it is that simple.
Comment by Leo Levkut — August 22, 2008 @ 11:18 am
I must say I am concerned that all of the bashing is now based at the AOG. The majority of AOG churches are not the mega churches you talk of nor do they act in the way you describe. The AOG church I attend is more Baptist than the Baptist church down the road. We are encouraged to debate and test what is spoken at the pulpit. We aren’t flushed with money. Fact is we are a bunch of people who love GOD. All demoninations in our Christian wirld have flaws easily picked on by those who wish to – fact is the Devil loves that. Lets move beyond the bashing of the AOG, its too easy to pick on 3 or 4 mega churches and say they are all the same. Fact is they aren’t…..
Comment by Justin — August 22, 2008 @ 12:23 pm
I wanted to clarify something. Its the ACC now. Has been since 2007. The problem you all have is you think its wrong to question the running of a denomination. Its not. We need to hold people accountable and not let anyone do what they like. Mike did wrong and the churches view: COVER IT UP! Its a practise performed by the church time after time. We need to get over it and expose the flaws. We have too many people scared that the church wont be full on a sunday or that we wont have anyone come back again. Well maybe its a God thing then. Our churches are so focused on building and numbers we foget that we have a community who needs us. We pour money into programs and preachers yet the little old lady down the street (We have one of these) has no money for food. Come on. Take some guts and stand up for the body of Christ. Lets stop holding the church back by letting people cover the problems up and lets open the doors wide and say “Hey world we’re sinners too” Then maybe we are truthful and we are open. We a real people living in a sinful world. Lets get back to what its all about. Not Christian rock stars but the word, love hope and Jesus.
Love yas all.
Benny.
Comment by Ben Goble — August 22, 2008 @ 1:56 pm
I am saddened and shocked by this news but I cannot judge Mike, only God knows the truth and I pray now that the truth shall set Mike free of all this deception. All I know is that at a very critical time in my life this story inspired me throughout my cancer ordeal and the song Healer connected me with the Holy spirit on an amazing level throughout my chemo and bone marrow transplant, this is what I have to look back on when I think should I still listen to the song etc It was all through God and not through mike that I was inspired to fight and live! Thank God for this experience
Comment by Jess — August 22, 2008 @ 2:19 pm
Well it’s about time! I am sick of churches of ALL denominations treating the Word of God in a fraudulent manner. It;s no wonder trash tv picks up on the scams and materialism.
Where are the real elders and prophets? Where are the people who really do hear from God and expose frauds, liars and sexual deviates?
The modern church has just replicated what the medieval catholic church did-create kings who sit in place of Christ. If you challenge them then you are the one who is creating disunity-go figure. I have met a lot of these would be ‘men of God’ and most of them have very little biblical education.
There seems to be a lot of generalisations from the pulpits these days-very little actual preaching of the Bible-why? Because it exposes the flesh on stage.
How can mega churches of any kind be justified when there is povery in the world? Since when has being a pastor been the ‘ultimate’ in christianity?
You want a revival of the Spirit of God in Australia-sell the big buildings, give the tithe to the poor and needy, remove man authorised doctrines.
And another thing, since when has ‘worship music’ been the only form of christian music? It has become christian easy conservative make me feel good God pop crap that fills the pockets of a select few-a disgrace.
We have fallen from grace.
penatenziagite!
Comment by FraDolcino — August 22, 2008 @ 2:24 pm
Comment by Steve John — August 22, 2008 @ 2:25 pm
Without doubt it is hard to accept wat has happened. i believe it is normal for people feel betrayed and angry and it is important that we knowledge how we feel about certain situations. it is important to express our feelings but its how we express how feelings which is important. Feeling anger is not a sin, but it is how we express our anger which can turn into sin. What mike did was selfish and irresponsible and he will receive the consequences for that, but God will always forgive him, as he will always forgives us. As christian we should all forgive him, as Christ has forgiven us, plus the way to receive healing for being hurt from others is to forgive and let go. If we dont truely forgive him, we are only hurting ourself as bitterness builds up and stops us from getting closer to God. Another thing is that the bible saids to beware of people’s fruits which means to be aware of the ppls actions. But this does not give us the right to judge Mikes motives, the churches motives, or even the families motives, but only God knows and he is the ultimate judge. As one of the leaders of a Youth group, as a team we work extremely hard to promote God in ppl’s lives, and we can not judge all churches based on one man’s actions. This incident proves that it doesn’t matter how spiritual we think we are, we are all valuable to the devil’s attacks. Lets pray for Mike and his family and also for their church as they go through this difficult time. God Bless
Comment by Dave — August 22, 2008 @ 3:30 pm
great post by abi reddey!
all churches (including mine) need to be a whole lot more self-critical – and God has given us his Word which is the most penetrating tool of analysis you can get… Look at how the prophets, or Jesus himself, laid into Israel/the religious leaders for their faithlessness and every type of sin
and the main thing I think the modern church should be nailed on is Worldliness
Comment by Bearbrass — August 22, 2008 @ 3:40 pm
OK Justin (August 22, 2008 @ 12:23 pm), well what are you more humble AOG guys going to do about Brian and Bobbie and Mikey G? They’re your problem, they bring all of you into disrepute by glorifying themselves.
Comment by Bearbrass — August 22, 2008 @ 3:53 pm
Bearbrass – firstly we are the ACC not AOG but its not an ACC or AOG issue – WE ARE ALL THE BODY OF CHRIST….. Thats the issue here, we all put labels on ourselves I’m this or I’m that but you know what we are all CHRISTIANS – Not ACC, Baptist, Anglican. Do you tell someone you are a Christian or a Baptist, or Anglican etc.
I know that Bobby and Brian et al can rub people the wrong way, but I can tell you its not just the ACC/AOG that has put them on a pedestal. Look at any Hillsong Conference etc there is a lot of non ACC/AOG people there.
I’m not perfect, hey none of us are, and by its very nature our churches aren’t either. They can’t be, they all miss something… problem with ACC is that their leaders are more visable then other churches and because of this when they fall its big news everywhere…..
My prayer and hope/belief is that this episode/incident will allow all of the church of Christ to have a good hard look at itself and implement the changes needed.
In terms of Mike and the ACC, The ACC has announced all monies obtained through deception will be returned and Mikes credentials removed. I pray they don’t leave him out to dry as has happened to many other pastors across all denominations….
Bearbrass – I probably didn’t answer your question fully, fact is I’m not sure anyone can…..
Comment by Justin — August 22, 2008 @ 4:04 pm
hi Justin –
thanks for setting me straight on what your denomination is now called -
you wrote;
“My prayer and hope/belief is that this episode/incident will allow all of the church of Christ to have a good hard look at itself and implement the changes needed.”
and I couldnt agree more.
Comment by Bearbrass — August 22, 2008 @ 4:14 pm
I love God because he exposed my secret sins and now i am free from them. He is so Holy and His work in my life has done the impossible in me. I was locked in hidden sin and then i was found out. By grace and mercy i was discipled to freedom. I thank God that i was found out because freedom is better than reputation. I pray God would free Mike and restore Him just as God restored David when Nathan came to Him. Our God is mighty to save. Praise God, He is merciful, full of truth and love. I pray that we too would be merciful, full of truth and love to ourselves and each other.
Comment by Stevo — August 22, 2008 @ 4:33 pm
That’s Michael’s problem, Stevo… The church’s problem is that it promotes and worships too many leaders like Michael – that’s what some of us would like to address
Comment by Bearbrass — August 22, 2008 @ 5:18 pm
actually I’m sorry Stevo there was more to your post than I realised – some helpful thoughts about secret sins – there’ll be no more posts from me today (probably)!
Comment by Bearbrass — August 22, 2008 @ 5:20 pm
If he has had these various “ailments” before and I agree, appears to have pathological lie tendencies, it’s obvious that his conscience hasn’t faced the proper consequences. I think churches are all good. It’s the pastors, priests, etc. that fail their congregations. It is God that heals us, not the hands of the congregational leaders. I don’t think prayers are going to help. I suggest a good psychiatrist. Excellent blog.
Comment by peacefulwhispers — August 22, 2008 @ 5:26 pm
“If you forgive those who sin aganst you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins”(Matthew 6: 14-15)Forgive Michael just as God forgives us without limit.
Comment by Harrison G — August 22, 2008 @ 9:00 pm
There are a lot of great comments here, lots of though out perspective – very encouraging to read the range of emotions we are all going through. I think one of the problems exposed by this is the teaching about church leaders in churches like Edge… I’m going to write about it over the next week, but the basic idea is that they have taken a pattern of leadership from the old testament instead of the new.
Comment by Peter Willmott — August 22, 2008 @ 9:56 pm
penatenziagite!penatenziagite! WOW
do we really need music to get us into the worship spirit?!since when God need our emotional worship enhancement drugs!
I wounder also “I say that with the utmost respect to the holy spirit”, but did the healed pastor also speak in tongues?! could that be unreal “fraud” too?! how can you speak(pray) in/by the “holy spirit” in the presence of deception, if we are/he is praying in tongues to edify self, what sort of spiritual edification is that??!!
Please WAKE UP AOG….
THE LORD IS NEAR
and most of what you offer is not for the spirit heart but only for the eye and EAR.
It’s much more than just to cheer,
but it is love after GOD’S fear.
Lots of emotions and tears, and deception year after year!
GOD HELP US the shepherd voice HEAR, AND to the truth ADHERE.
GLORY BE TO YOUR NAME ONLY from a loving heart and sincere!
very embarrassed Christian!
Comment by Man — August 23, 2008 @ 12:13 am
The Hillsong Spin Machine in action:
“Shortly after the news broke of this alleged fraud, videos that showed Guglielmucci speaking openly about his cancer and also featured various footage of him wearing an oxygen mask while leading worship were removed from Youtube.[3][4] Messages on Youtube in place of the removed material indicate that Hillsong Publishing was asserting their copyright of the material in having the videos removed.[5] However, Hillsong Publishing had not previously asserted their copyright for the video on Youtube featuring Guglielmucci and his song “Healer”, which had recently reached as high as 300,000 views. Since the news of Guglielmucci’s alleged fraud, every other attempt to host the videos has been met shortly thereafter by Hillsong asserting their copyright to have them removed”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Guglielmucci
Comment by Lionfish — August 23, 2008 @ 12:22 am
to be honest that is a very wise move by Hill song as that does not only affect only one church or only one pastor but us all.
unless you think that what Monica did and said on the international media was justified. or was the best thing to do?!!
Comment by Man — August 23, 2008 @ 12:35 am
While this situation is one that is very difficult to understand and we could all sit around forever trying to figure out how this could have happened, the bottom line and the truth of it all is that the same deceptiveness and darkness lies within us all. Jer. 17:9 says that “the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it.” I’m sure if you would have asked Mike several years ago if he could imagine himself being where he is today he would say heck no. None of us think we are capable of things like this but unfortunately we are human and whether you think you are or not you are. It’s by the grace of God we can stay away from things like this. It only takes one time of letting your guard down and who knows where it could lead. Just remember, before you go around pointing fingers and trying to figure it all out and casting blame…pride comes before the fall…you’re not to good that it couldn’t happen to you.
Comment by Brad — August 23, 2008 @ 12:53 am
Just wondering,
the word “LEADER” how many times was it mentioned in the NEW (Jesus) TESTAMENT,
1-The KJV/NKJV/ASV/NIV I found NONE,
BUT in other translations I found a mention to the word leader couple of times and here it is:
-Mt 23:10 “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
- Lu 22:26 “BUT IT IS NOT THIS WAY WITH YOU, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the SERVANT.
Well now we understand that Jesus did not come to recruit leaders….leadership maniacs, you wanna be a leader because off course you are TALENTED, FIND somewhere else to show off but not in the house of PRAYER.
BY the way, I here you asking, the word “SERVANT”, how many times was mentioned in “GRACE (NEW) TESTAMENT..you wouldn’t believe it!! Mr. “me me me I wanna be a leader in the church because I am talented”…..WHAT?!!
1- in KJV is 79 times
2- in NKJV is 80 times.
3- The American Standard Version 82times.
4- in NIV is 97 times
5- The Good News Translation 106 times!!!!!!
WATDDAA!!!! 2:106
Was that an accident?! well Jesus did not come to recruit “talented/awesome/handsome/gifted..etc LEADERS”
HE (Jesus)discipled his followers to SERVE SERVE SERVE
IN HUMILITY depending completely on their ONLY LEADER, JESUS THE SERVANT KING…..
STOP LEADING THIS LIFE STYLE BY SERVING AND ONLY SERVING…
A Saved sinner!
Comment by MAN — August 23, 2008 @ 1:37 am
I like this last post.
I truly believe that the modern Christian church puts too much value in being a leader, rather than a servant. The higher the pedestal on which we place our worship leaders, pastors, missionaries etc the further they have to fall. The amount of times that we hear pastors and church officials encourage their congregation to step up and become leaders makes me angry. Not everyone is born to ‘lead’, but instead influence, inspire or just simply live their lives. I spent a long time in a church leading in the youth ministry, when I probably should not have been in that position at all. When I left leadership on my own behalf, there was nothing for me there, no pastoral care, no support, and it became quite clear who my friends were.
The church has a lot of growing up to do. We are too busy living a modern lifestyle in a world that is experiencing a post-modern transition. Church shouldn’t be about people ‘leading’ one another, but rather LIVING with one another and teaching each other.
That said, I do think its time we learned from this situation. The Church will definitely suffer the consequences, and I say so be it. It is about time that we took some responsibility for the way we are bringing up new Christians and our youth. we are teaching them to put importance in stupid trivial things, instead of community living, and authenticity, and LOVE! The people who are perceived as important in the church are on stage; they sell cds, sermon tapes, books, and tshirts, and this is all kids see. Almost every church I’ve been to in the past few years has a bookstore in the foyer, advertising Christianity to people. The next time I go, there’s a bigger projector screen in their state-of-the-art auditorium, or some new flash way that they’ve designed the stage. The Church these days is just another piece in a marketing puzzle (just take a look at the ARIA charts for the last 10 years).
Comment by NN — August 23, 2008 @ 3:15 am
Plus, another thing we should learn from this is that we still have a lot of gossip in the church. I don’t even relate in church circles much anymore, and I know about all this (I’ve heard and read 6 contradicting accounts. Just because we don’t personally know the people involved, doesn’t mean it suddenly changes from gossip form. Keep that in mind next time you post your opinion on another blog site. These are real people, they have lives off the stage as well and it is not for us to speculate.
Comment by NN — August 23, 2008 @ 3:29 am
MAN – Your comment is the best thing that I have read on the Internet in such a long time.
Most ‘Bible’ colleges are becoming “Leadership” colleges – and “Leadership” is becoming a new idol in the Church.
If Leadership was so important, the word would appear so many more times in the NT.
Comment by Lionfish — August 23, 2008 @ 7:41 am
How did he get away with it? He made sure that he was only dealing with gullible chumps. And where did he think he’d be likely to find a large group of gullible chumps? …
Fool me once, shame on you;
Fool me twice, shame on me;
Fool me for 2008 years, …
Comment by Ben — August 23, 2008 @ 9:25 am
[...] How did Michael Guglielmucci get away with it? I read today that Michael Guglielmucci has been lying about his cancer. You can read all about it at [...] [...]
Pingback by Top Posts « WordPress.com — August 23, 2008 @ 10:02 am
Good point MAN about leadership being servannthood but dont miss the NT verses about those called to serve in a capacity that requires them to take responsibility in either ‘management’ or ‘leadership’ (Eph. 4). Why did Christ have Apostles? The real issue here is not just the use of a word (leadership) but what you have rightly identified as the real problem — how we allow 80′s Yuppie culture (Greed and power is good) — to influence the church.
Right now we would be well served to ask our ‘leaders’ in every Pentecostal church to openly discuss the ladder climbing culture, Duty of Care and related conflict of interest ethics.
Comment by Dean Eaton — August 23, 2008 @ 11:12 am
I think the point about ‘leadership’ and ‘serventhood’ is put about too generally in terms of the christian churchs. I know my church does have the people they call leaders, but rnt leaders needed at times? Sure i do believe that there are some churches that put too much emphasis on the ‘celebrity’ aspect of the church (which my ‘leaders’ spoke about last night btw), but i still think that some churches out there HAVE got it right.
Like i am not able to count the amount of times my church preached on being a ‘servent’, and how many times my church says that the people helping out in the car park are just as good as any one of the people on stage.
I for example, play on stage, but i also do the car park most sunday mornings, and if im not on car park im helping out with the cameras (altho keep in mind i will always listen 2 the sermen and spend time in worship, i dnt like it wen ppl do that stuff 2 get out of the service). But my point is, ‘leaders’ still serve in the house. They r only calld the leaders so that we no who we can ask 4 help. And because that is where they were calld to b, 2 help giv the audience of the church a word that they can apply.
I no sum churches havnt got this, but u shud not generalize to all modern christian churches.
Comment by John — August 23, 2008 @ 12:17 pm
well it is controversial, please allow me to GENERALIZE. WHY?!
- Disciples Peter and his brother their mother was concerned about their position in the “KINGDOM”, thats when the king of kings told them “Lu 22:26 “BUT IT IS NOT THIS WAY WITH YOU, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the SERVANT.” so the scripture writer driven by the holy spirit was wise enough not to use this word “LEADER” in the light of a Christian concept. for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.(Ps 103:14). so it is not surprising that the word leadership is not mention in the new testament when it comes to serving.
Also Jesus did not send them as apostles till they understood the write concept of leadership as disciples first. immagine if Ap. Peter stil liked the idea to become first in the kingdom, he wouldn’t have never sacrificed his own life for his master..!! You know what I mean..?!
As for Epph 4, the apostle Paul started by declaring “As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live…. “. in that he demonestrated leadership, but if you noticed as a SERVANT, or even more PRISONER, not as an experienced talented teacher and a leader (master), which he was anyway..
(As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live…)
(11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up….) Eph 411-12
So it was not about leadership it was only about serving…management in the church = pure service LED by the holy spirit)….
Peter did not have any leadership skilss actually he was very hard person to be managed….but he changed the world when he understood the concept of the LEADING servant hood, JESUS taught them all as disciples..first before he sent them as apostles..
SO If the desciples of jesus christ did not get right first till he taght them, it is very common for churches (or individuals in churches) to get it wrong until taught the truth.
Just also remember Judah was the only one in the 12 that was involved in management….and look what happened to him…just a thought…!
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief (MAN)
Comment by MAN — August 23, 2008 @ 5:16 pm
I find it incredibly interesting that the majority of people getting MOST overwraught and vocal about the Mike Guglielmucci fraud…
1. Are NOT Christians.
2. Slam Christians for spending / donating their money in ways that are meant to benefit OTHERS, rather than themselves.
3. Make more and more outrageous claims about people, places and situations they CLEARLY know nothing about
4. Derive enjoyment from the pain of others.
Before you go jumping down my throat, pause for a moment and genuinely consider this:
What if your most private, embarrassing and shameful secret was reported all over the world???
Now, those of you without any dirty habits, shameful secrets or troubled pasts…continue to ‘crucify’ a man who is possibly at the lowest point of his entire life.
Nothing can defend what Mike has done. Can anything really defend the bad things that the rest of us have done???
BTW – aren’t written defamatory statements called “Libel”??? And isn’t libel a criminal or civil offence???
Just a thought – you might ALL want to check your facts before spouting off about who lives where, who is the pastor of what, who earns what, who doesn’t pay taxes, etc…
And while you’re at it, how about YOU get out there and feed the hungry, clothe the needy, sponsor a child here OR overseas (instead of buying that new iPhone / plasma TV / latte, etc) and stop bagging the people who put their time AND money where their mouths are to attempt to help people less fortunate than themselves.
It seems to me that the ones who shout the loudest are often the ones who do nothing for anyone but themselves.
Just an observation.
Let me finish by quoting Charles Darwin:
The highest possible stage in moral culture is when we recognize that we ought to control our thoughts.
Comment by miranda180571 — August 23, 2008 @ 6:33 pm
Hi Miranda,
Not to jump down your throat… but the people commenting on this page don’t seem to match your description. It seems disingenuous to criticize people you know nothing about because they have criticized someone who has publicly lied – there is a great importance to discussing the church environment that allowed this to happen.
If church life is never allowed to change and evolve, it will stagnate. If there is never any critical thinking about the way it all works, it will never change. Michael’s failings will pass, and he will hopefully grow through this and find solace in repentance, but if the rest of us don’t grow and learn through it as well, it will just happen again.
Comment by Peter Willmott — August 23, 2008 @ 10:18 pm
Hi Miranda,
I like many abhor the actions of Mike, but are not ‘condemning’ him …
Most people are angry that this has been allowed to happen in an environment that discourages real critical thinking.
At one point, I was a ‘Partner’ at Riverview Church in Perth – involved in kids ministry (loved doing that), financially contributing, cell group attending etc. etc…
Then the God’s Millionairres article was published by the Business Review Weekly Published – and I was effectively stone walled when I asked valid and honest questions about the financials, the doctrines and the inconstancies between statements made on public record by Church Leaders.
http://www.trinityfi.org/press/GodsMillionaires.html
I resigned my own Partnership after fair questions I asked regarding the assertions made in the BRW’s article “God’s Millionaires: (June 2005) would not be answered adequately by the Senior Pastor – and financials not provided.
After much research, (I am a Business Analyst by profession), I have concluded that these organisations are family owned Businesses – rather than Churches that:
1) Claim “..the books are open” yet detailed financials of all related entities are not provided upon request.
2) Manipulatively promote the teaching on ‘tithing’ which does not stand up to accepted principles of biblical interpretation.
3) Facilitate a ‘networked speaking circuit’ where these Senior Pastors pay each other large sums of money to speak at each others Churches and Conferences into tax-free ‘ministry’ entities that they control.
4) Are autocratically controlled by the Senior Pastor and his appointed Board – allowing these Churches to become ˜inherited family owned businesses (refer to the Articles of Incorporation and you will see what I mean). Many megachurches are passed down including Paradise SA, Riverview Perth etc.)
5) Cover up contradictions such as Brian Houston’s “on the record” (“Lords Profits” SMH 2003) statement that “he makes money as a property developer” and later “(He) has never been a property developer” (Letter to Editor, BRW/Australin Story 2005).
I urge all “Spiritual consumers” to be astute and heed the words of St Jerome (345-420 a.d. ) “Avoid, as you would the plague, a clergyman who is also a man of business.”
I will conclude with the timely and ironic words of Senior Pastor, Phil Baker in an open Blog comment to me
“Australians are thinking people…quick to spot a fraud and certainly not into pretensiousness. The greatest miracle is that people are coming in their masses to our church and others like them..I guess all of them are not thinking deeply and just in it for entertainment…If that is what you honestly believe I feel sorry for you…”
http://www.signposts.org.au/2006/01/27/amway-and-the-contemporary-church/comment-page-1/#comment-127230
The ’spirituality’ of the HS/Contemporary Church has now been shown to be nothing more than an emotional experience manipulated by the man with words that appeal to ‘itching ears’, music and expensive stage performances .
One thing I have learned is that the Christian spiritual experience has to be much more robust, much deeper and much more authentic than the Riverview/Hillsiong/CCC/Mike G experience.
This Mike G scandal has exposed a great deal more than his own fraud.
Comment by Lionfish — August 23, 2008 @ 11:23 pm
Sorry about the fragmentation in my last comment – just really, really tired.
Comment by Lionfish — August 23, 2008 @ 11:26 pm
Dear MAN,
I can see how you r angry at the modern churches, but no offense.. the scripture u read jst about proved wat i said. About not GENERALIZING.
My church follows that scripture pretty much exact. As i plainly stated MANY times, our leaders ARE servants. I am one of them!
I am sorry if you cannot see the fact that just because one man sinned, doesn’t mean that the entire community did, but thats the fact. SOME churches hav it together, and SOME do not. This has been throughout history and will always continue to happen, we just must try and learn from the mistakes as Peter has pointed out.
But POSITIVE critisism people, please try to remember that this hits really close to home for many, and by releasing your angry thoughts (without thinking), does not help.
So please… don’t generalize.
Comment by John — August 23, 2008 @ 11:29 pm
What i find sad is that, in my experience, the people that complain about the “superstar” culture are simply complaining about the fact that they aren’t in the “in-crowd”.
They usually have some issues of their own and are angry that they are not recognised for their gift like someone else is.
The funny thing about that is that by that thinking, they create an “in-crowd” that they are excluded from. it is human nature to want what we don;t have. To look at something and think it’s better than what i have. So by wanting to be with certain people, we create an “in-crowd”. It’s just the law of supply and demand.
You want to be like them because of your own insecurity and so you create a demand for what htey have … influence. then when they talk to someone or give them some of their influence, they are now supplying htat demand.
but it isn;t “the church system” that creates this. It’s you! it’s your insecurity! it’s you wnating to be liked as they are. it’s you wanting the stage that they have. All thhis want creates is a demand. Which then makes it a commodity.
If you wnat ot change this “superstar” culture, it’s not that hard. Stop creating a demand for it by your wanting to be a part of it. deal wiht your own issues of insecurity and get over yourself.
If i don;t care about the “in crowd” talking to me, it ceases to hold any power over me. It’s not longer the in-crowd.
Of course, i wouldn’t want to generalise. and i’m sure this doesn;t apply to everyone reading it. but if the boot fits …
Comment by Alex — August 23, 2008 @ 11:40 pm
Dear John,
In what I said i was not generalizing the action, but Generalizing the possibility….
so I was saying it could happen any where, unless the teaching is clear regarding serving in a church environment.
it is not A work force you have a boss and you lead your staff……
IN CHURCHES
THE “LEADERS” should lead with a heart of a Shepperd.
As the Christ taught us….so you can avoid “LEADERS” that comes in sheep’s clothing.
And a Shepperd is much more concerned about the sheep, than being concerned about how the sheep call him…. Don’t you think?!
I do not think a Shepperd would want to be called or have the title “leader” more than a “Shepperd”…
very important concept…Remeber what Jesus told Peter in Joh 21:16
“Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to Him
“Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.”
he epescially said that to peter because he was honest, and he told directly Jesus I wanna be on your right in the kingdom….he thought he is good enough to lead his sheep..
but woo to whom that comes in sheep clothing to Shepherd to only lead so they can satisfy an unfulfilled need to control be recognized….
just lets talk about the great Shepherd of Shepherds in our churches and learn from him instead of recruiting “Leaders”…something that Jesus did not ask us for,
he just asked for shepherds to (his sheep)…much bigger responsibility than being a leader….
As for Brother MG, I sincerely consider myself a much worse sinner , that is maintained by the grace of the gracious shepherd…
I hope He restores his soul, as he restored mine too, as sometimes I can be a great good and typical sheep in the all fullness of the word…
and I think that I can be promoted to be a shepherd but I ended up hurting my poor sheep brothers and sisters…
Lets all approach this matter in GRACIOUS TRUTH!
Comment by MAN — August 24, 2008 @ 1:25 am
I am really shocked by this as well. It’s brought me near tears, as I had said prayers for his healing, and had thoughts of him and the struggle he must be going through, fighting against cancer. Now as I have read about his deceptiveness, I’m still having trouble letting it sink in that he actually has done this.
For me, I have also suffered with an addiction to pornography. I understand how much guilt he would have felt over his life, it’s agonising. I ended up leaving my church because of the guilt I felt, which was stupid really because that made me further away from God, but too late now.. Anyway. With this addiction (or with any, really) you feel like despite your at church and everyone has sinned, you feel like yours is the worst and that you do not deserve to be in the same room as these people.
Mike was brought up in a Christian family, his parents (or his father) is a pastor. Mike would have struggled immensely with this secret, and obviously didn’t feel like he could talk to his parents about it as it would have been drummed into him that its a sin, its wrong etc. With this type of thing, you really do think people will look at you like your the devil yourself.
There is a news article which states: “Mr Guglielmucci revealed his son had suffered “mystery illnesses” since the age of 12 — about the time his porn addiction began.”
If he has been dealing with this guilt since this age, it would have been crushing his spirit. He sure does put on a good front though…. My thoughts are really all over the place at the moment, I really don’t know how to think or feel. Personally, he doesn’t need any of our forgiveness, he only needs God’s, and thats all that matters. I truly hope he gets it. But in saying that, right at this point I’d find it hard to think of him as an amazing, inspirational man as many christians are still describing him. I feel if all these mystery illnesses have started from age 12, then a lot of his life has been built up on lies, to me that is not inspirational. It’s sad.
One thing I do think though is that there is something mentally wrong with him. Thats my personal view of course and he is undergoing psychiatric assessments with doctors (no, he really is lol) to see how he is mentally (from a news article). They have told his father he is very ill, what that means, I don’t know.
As I have suffered from the same addiction as Mike, I understand the guilt he would feel, this does not excuse what he has done and, personally, I don’t think he can use this addiction as an excuse. I know right from wrong, I know the guilt. But I would never ever ever do something like this. I’ve taken myself away from the church because of it, I didn’t fake cancer and other illnesses. What was going through his mind all this time, I don’t know. It’s mind-blowing, really.
It makes me mad just thinking about it, I’m actually mixed emotions. We obviously don’t know the full story either, such as how he got away with it for so long. He has had this “cancer” for two years yes? Didn’t his wife EVER attend a doctors appointment with him??? And how did he get the medical supplies. And he has also just gone to doctors waiting rooms and sat around for hours, just to make it look like he really did have cancer, but he never once saw a doctor!! (from a news article) I mean, he obviously put a lot of thought into this, working out steps to make it show that he was “ill” but, mentally I think something must have been controlling his thoughts, to a certain degree…
It’s all very complicated, isn’t it. I know some won’t see it as complicated and will simply say hes a conman, but I personally think there is something more to it, and it obviously started at a very young age. I feel very sad for him though, that someone did not see it years ago, and he could have got the help then, rather then have it escalated to what has happened now.
I truly hope he can be healed from this and that they find what is wrong with him. And, he did con people and got donations, so that is basically stealing. I hope there is justice in that, and that he has to do some sort of community service work or jail time – anyone else would as well, and that all money is returned or donated to a charity.
This is a very long post and its probably just ramblings but one thing I will say is that what one person does can’t reflect on the whole church. What Michael did was wrong, but the church obviously does not support it, they have in no way tried covering it up (apart from hillsong taking down the videos) and are doing all they can to help fix this. The church are not to blame, they are just as much a victim – taken in by the preachings of Michael. We can’t sit here and say how awful AOG churches are or whatever everyone else is saying, it is not their fault. There may be some churches which do bad things, of course. But that doesn’t mean all churches are the same.
ok, thats it I think. I pray he gets all the help he needs and is diagnosed soon. I hope everyone can heal from this, and move forward. I hope Michael finds healing in his heart.
Me – I still don’t know how I feel, but thats what I hope…
Peace to all.
Comment by anon — August 24, 2008 @ 4:26 am
ps. im not apart of an AOG church anymore, I actually now attend a catholic church.. but, I don’t think the AOG churches are to blame and people shouldn’t be talking them out because of what Michael has done..
Comment by anon — August 24, 2008 @ 4:33 am
The latest on Mike G.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24232365-1246,00.html
He’s a classy guy.
Comment by Eliot — August 24, 2008 @ 8:01 am
“Man’ I love you brother!
People can argue that these kinds of problems are generalisations all they want-it doesn’t change the fact that for 2000 years the ‘church’ has suffered from materialism and idolatry-in human form.
These mega churches are becoming models of what to do to the bulk of the small churches who claim to be doing things the right way-the error is compounded.
There are plenty of small churches run by froot loop cowboys-just go to QLD and you will see what I mean.
As I asked before-WHAT ABOUT THE PASTORS AND PROPHETS WHO FAILED TO DISCERN THE FRAUDS?
Who are they accountable to?
We have this culture of non disclosure and ivory towers-’leaders’ whose positions are now institutionalised, an unbiblical position now some how above the law-above accountability to the congregations.
If this guy was so ill-how and why was he allowed into a position of influence? Let’s face it, Danny, Brian, Bobby, Darlene and the rest of them were conned and didn’t discern the problem-I question their ‘authority’.
The plain and simple fact is that church ‘leadership’ does not fit biblical standards and descriptions. However, I am sure the other sheep will create all sorts of excuses-I will wager that the church won’t admit to being massively deceived-it will be someone else’s fault.
You can pray for this idiot all you want-what about all the unsaved people who won’t be experiencing Christ this weekend because the masses are too interested in hearing a few funny business model surmons and gazing starry eyed at their precious pastors who are so near to God, listening to their feel good christian self worship pop music.
Sucked in to all the fools who fell for his con artistry-that’s what you get for being self centered and forgetting people in the underground cultures and the real world. I look forward to going back to my local church-the heavy metal club and ministering to the lost talents-people who will never fit into this disgusting conservative hypocrisy.
Penatenziagite.
Comment by FraDolcino — August 24, 2008 @ 8:20 am
Lionfish, that Business Review Weekly article (http://www.trinityfi.org/press/GodsMillionaires.html) is awesome! I hadn’t seen it before.
It’s very very scary stuff :-S
Comment by Eliot — August 24, 2008 @ 9:11 am
I am not one who normally writes on forums, but I feel compelled to for this one. I want to point out several things, mainly to the writers here; Mike Guglielmucci will have his fair share.
1. The Christian army is the only civilised army that shoots its wounded soldiers!
2. Didn’t our Saviour say that, he who is without sin cast the first stone!
3. In Gods eyes, there is NO distinction between sin. At the seat of judgement, all sin is judged equally!
4. For those who choose to walk away from God as a result of this, they now have their EXCUSE. They would have wanted to leave for some time!
5. Does Michael’s action take ANYTHING away from God? The plain and simple answer is NO! God is just; God is full of grace for any of us seeking it!
I know for myself that the allure of sin can at times seem insurmountable, it is for this reason that I urge everyone reading this, make yourself accountable. Surround yourself with godly men and women who will confront and convict you (and me) of when we seem to be heading towards stumbling. We do this out of love, which is insignificant to the love of our Father!
Comment by ken — August 24, 2008 @ 9:41 am
hey guys i know that you guys have been affected by the incident. Peter Willmott did post up the truth. But God is still God.
There is no perfect church, small groups or community. Everyone is imperfect!
I urge everyone that you will not build walls around your hearts but build doors.
You may get hurt really bad at times when u people trespass the requirement of the doors but keep your heart tender so that you will feel what God feels and your heart broken by what break His. Once you harden your heart to people, before you know it, you harden against God.
Comment by ubeng — August 24, 2008 @ 1:07 pm
Guys,
UnGrace in action.
Planet Shakers are now rewriting history, dumping all references to Mike G from their website – and taking his name off song writing credits.
For the Hillong, Contemporary Church it is all about protecting the Brand, the image and the revenue stream.
http://planetshakersinsider.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/planetshakers-and-mike-guglielmucci-what-happens-to-the-music-now/#comment-52
Comment by Lionfish — August 24, 2008 @ 1:19 pm
So when will the leadership have some credibility? Lionfish has it right-stone the ‘sinner’ as the pharisees stand by. How about the whole leadership teams of Hills and Edge stand down because they failed-repeatedly.
All Empires fall.
Are we going to get an apology from all the super leaders who were conned-who didn’t hear the voice of God regarding this?
If we are going to push on with this rediculous mosaic hierarchy-bring out the stones for the elders who were either too materialistic to hear god-or were disobedient.
The ‘lay’ person cops plenty of ‘you must turn away-repent, have councilling etc’ will the people at the top?
Geoff Bullock
Pat Meseti
Mike Guglielucci
Who’s next?
Comment by FraDolcino — August 24, 2008 @ 2:02 pm
People are frail. We are frail. We are all with sin. Through my journey, through the journey I have seen others take, through the journey my family has taken, I have learnt not to cast any stones. Who am I to judge, who am I to say that Michael deserves what he deserves, who am I to determine what should happen?
We all have emotions. We all have hurts. Perhaps what God is trying to say is for people to take their eyes off of man and place them on Him. Why are we so quick to jump to conclusions?
Have any of you ever had a family member lie? Have you lied? Have you ever had a family member with a mental health condition? Have you ever had an encounter with God? Until you do then maybe you cannot really understand what has happened in these circumstances. Be careful to judge because then we have God’s judgement to answer to.
I am not saying that what Michael did was not wrong. What I am saying is not look at the person, but look at the spirit behind it. Don’t dislike the person, dislike the spirit because we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities of the darkness of this world.
I hear and see so much anger in the words above. But we have forgotten this, ‘What would Jesus Christ do?’ Perhaps we need to focus on this instead of putting forth our ‘death’ stamp.
Pray for Michael, pray for his family, pray for the Church.
Comment by Elizabeth — August 24, 2008 @ 4:40 pm
BTW, I do not know the family personally, have not been a member of Southside / Edge, and do not nor have lived in South Australia.
I do however know God.
Comment by Elizabeth — August 24, 2008 @ 4:42 pm
Lastly, fyi
http://www.nextwaveonline.com/comment.asp?ID=231
Comment by Elizabeth — August 24, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
We need to remember grace, and we can all learn from this in our own personal lives. Let us try to keep ourselves from bitterness.
http://www.nextwaveonline.com/comment.asp?ID=231
Comment by Elizabeth — August 24, 2008 @ 4:56 pm
We elarned about this today in Church and I’ve been reading about the issues and various opinions online since. I do know the family personally, with the exception of Mike who had left Edge prior to me starting to attend.
I no longer attend Edge, but my time there did leave me with an impression of a team of people who had a genuine concern for the community in Southern Adelaide. We sometimes pop in when we are back in town to check on the progress of the Church. Knowing Mike’s father personally I wish to add my opinion by saying that i understand Danny would be devestated by this news. I would also expect that there would have been full disclosure in Edge Church this morning, as I know Danny to be a man of integrity, and one who will address difficult issues head on rather than sweeping them under the proverbial carpet.
Our prayers go out to Mike and his wife . Also to Danny and the extended Church family. May God bring wisdom, understanding and healing through this experience.
Mal Fletcher’s blog brings a mature commentary during this challenging time – I found it here http://www.nextwaveonline.com/comment.asp?ID=231
Comment by I'm a sinner too — August 24, 2008 @ 5:28 pm
FOR ADULTS ONLY!!!
Just to mature Christians…
Ask yourself when The profit King David… Wrote one of his best Psalms
that WAS/still IS/WILL touch the hearts of human generations….
Psalm 51
should have been trusted enough by all this generations to have this psalm in the book of psalms….??
He fornicated, conned, killed, and also lied, and judged in hypocrisy …
But the sovereign still had this psalm as a part of his scripture….
I believe that “I believe” will still be an anthem of faith…not because of the writer but because of the inspirer….
I can not stop listening to this song and I will not stop…
May be he sang it as he felt that he needed the touch of the healer…
the difference between me, you and MG is that he was in the public eye, and positively inspired many…
But ME and YOU are did the same thing if not much much worse…!
leave the punishment and the judgment to the supreme Judge
well atleast he went public with his sin and admitted it….would you???!!
Comment by MAN — August 24, 2008 @ 9:37 pm
I am not surprised he is blaming his massive lies on an addiction. That way he still gets to have a sickness, still needs lots of help and attention. People who believe that he faked the cancer out of guilt are being gullible and just buying into another lie because it has a christian story attached to it.
I suspect he is incredibly narcisstic and needs a huge amount of attention.. and that is his real problem.
Comment by Jen — August 24, 2008 @ 9:53 pm
AFTER THE LIES – WHAT THEN REALLY IS THE TRUTH…?
Did Ps. Mike Googlymoochie get caught or did he fess up himself?
Sceanrio 1) He was caught out after a Hillsong Audit?
“As a Christian who knew of Guglielmucci I am both saddened and shocked by this event. One of the positives out of the whole sad affair is that apparently he was caught out after an audit by the Administrator of Hillsong Church itself. For any who know the senior minister of this church they will appreciate that he will make great endeavours to ensure full propriety with the money that was raised. Brian Houston and the staff of Hillsong will be devastated by this event as they expect not only the highest standards from their church members but even higher from those who are either on staff or officially associated with them.
Posted by: Barry Fleming of Melbourne 2:36pm today
Comment 13 of 1
Source: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/comments/0,22023,24230152-2862,00.html
Scenario 2) He confessed under the weight of his sin?
““He was feeling like he was letting God down, letting his family down, his church, his friends.
“He’s been living this for so long, feeling like he’s had these two lives and now he’s the one that’s come out in the open. He confessed it, he didn’t get caught.
“To deal with the guilt he would pour himself into doing good work. He’s touched the lives of young people all over the world. Now they are all affected by this”
Ps Danny Googlymoochie
Source: . http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24230912-5006301,00.html
Comment by Lionfish — August 25, 2008 @ 9:01 am
Elizabeth I think you have missed the point. We can sit here all day and confess how sinful we all are-that’s fine, but it does not change the fact that the hierarchy failed.
We can’t be apologetic for their failure simply by saying ‘I’m a sinner too’. Someone has to be accountable and the present church system deflects accountability.
If this guy was sick from word go-then there ar a number of pastors who failed miserably in allowing him into na position of public influence. For someone to con everyone like this needs a great deal of thought from him-and blindness by those around him.
Like I said before-WHO ARE THE PROPHETS, PASTORS AND ELDERS who did not discern this.
We have to question the ‘system’ as it has been shown to be flawed and not functioning biblically.
It turns my gut when other Christians step back and go-’I won’t challenge the system…I don’t have the authority’ That’s not how the New Testament works.
We have a terrible problem-a system biult on a quasi Mosaic image of leadership-honour the man and such-out of context and used to legitimise ‘kings’.
The current modern church ‘leadership’ system is nothing like the New Testament.
We seem to want to pick and choose Levitical laws out of context for tithing and leadership-but fail to apply all the laws of that context-it’s all or nothing, you can’t mix and match.
Comment by FraDolcino — August 25, 2008 @ 1:11 pm
Please allow me to repeat what I said…
“LEADER?” “LEADERSHIP”?????!!!
IS THAT IN THE BIBLE????
Just wondering,
the word “LEADER” how many times was it mentioned in the NEW (Jesus) TESTAMENT,
1-The KJV/NKJV/ASV/NIV I found NONE,
BUT in other translations I found a mention to the word leader couple of times and here it is:
-Mt 23:10 “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
- Lu 22:26 “BUT IT IS NOT THIS WAY WITH YOU, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the SERVANT.
Well now we understand that Jesus did not come to recruit leaders….leadership maniacs, you wanna be a leader because off course you are TALENTED, FIND somewhere else to show off but not in the house of PRAYER.
BY the way, I here you asking, the word “SERVANT”, how many times was mentioned in “GRACE (NEW) TESTAMENT..you wouldn’t believe it!! Mr. “me me me I wanna be a leader in the church because I am talented”…..WHAT?!!
1- in KJV is 79 times
2- in NKJV is 80 times.
3- The American Standard Version 82times.
4- in NIV is 97 times
5- The Good News Translation 106 times!!!!!!
WATDDAA!!!! 2:106
Was that an accident?! well Jesus did not come to recruit “talented/awesome/handsome/gifted..etc LEADERS”
HE (Jesus)discipled his followers to SERVE SERVE SERVE
IN HUMILITY depending completely on their ONLY LEADER, JESUS THE SERVANT KING…..
STOP LEADING THIS LIFE STYLE BY SERVING AND ONLY SERVING…
A LEADER has followers, and when he falls……!
It would have been much better, if they followed the only MASTER AND a LEADER….the one that said “”"Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?”"John 8:46
here is THE true leader that was not believed…
and here is a fraud that every one believed…..Irrrronic…!!
I think what happened recently confirms the credibility of THE ONLY LEADER…
when he said Matthew 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible.”
IT IS A SIGN FOR HIS SECOND COMING!! here is a positive for what happened…
also the only teacher “LEADER” said:
IN Matthew 24:19 “How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! ”
Is that literally??? or may be he meant the vulnerable like the youth and that are not taught proper biblical teaching from Church Servants…
PLEASE READ MATTHEW 24. it is good..
Read it just read it… MATTHEW 24
A Saved sinner!
Comment by MAN — August 25, 2008 @ 2:58 pm
Hi, I’m really puzzled by comment #3 by the person that posted by the name of “N”. Also, is the person who posted with the alias “N N” the same as “N”? I would like to know why they think Modern Christianity is wrong, I read it last night and its been bugging me heaps today in everything I do, and its making me have fears and doubts about my faith. Please assist me to a better understanding of what you mean by that comment as you didn’t explain yourself very well. If someone could help me out with this I’d really appreciate it.
Comment by RichoFJ — August 25, 2008 @ 4:18 pm
FraDolcino, you seem to really have a strong issue with a lot of things surrounding this topic.
“Sucked in to all the fools who fell for his con artistry-that’s what you get for being self centered and forgetting people in the underground cultures and the real world. I look forward to going back to my local church-the heavy metal club and ministering to the lost talents-people who will never fit into this disgusting conservative hypocrisy.”
What do you mean by “underground cultures”? And why do you think I’ve forgotten about them? And are you comparing your church to a heavy metal club, or is that a metaphor for something else. And I believed Mike, but I wouldn’t say I’m a self-centred person at all. Thousands of ppl across the nation believed him, its a bit insulting and ignorant to paint everyone with such a broad brush. I’m sorry to say that all I can take away from your statement is that you dislike the church I go to, and that you think I am selfish for attending it. What kind of things do you look for when you go to church? You’re making everyone who attends Pentecostal churches, etc out to be a bunch of materialistic sadists, and IMO that couldn’t be further from the truth.
On another note, I listen to contemporary Christian music, and I value it a lot more than “feel good pop crap”. Is it the medium/delivery of the worship that you have an issue with? Or the content in the songs? Because some of the lyrics can be quite insightful and I find there’s a lot of truth to them. I’m not saying anything to be spiteful or to try and make you angry, I would genuinely like to hear your response on these things, and to get a better understanding of where you’re coming from.
Comment by RichoFJ — August 25, 2008 @ 4:54 pm
[...] Who’s fault is the Michael Guglielmucci scandal? Filed under: Lies — Tags: cancer, fake, fraud, hillsong, liar, Michael Guglielmucci, mike guglielmucci, planetshakers, worship — Peter Willmott @ 12:12 am So the whole christian world seems to be busy either crucifying Michael Guglielmucci or praying for his swift recovery and fingers are pointing faster than you can say heretic. I was blown away by the response to my previous post, and there are heaps of great comments from a wide range of views (link: How did Michael Guglielmucci get away with it?). [...]
Pingback by Who’s fault is the Michael Guglielmucci scandal? « The Way, The Truth and the Lies — August 26, 2008 @ 12:17 am
Mike should go to goal. he’s a fraudster as is the whole of that Hillsong group. Are they above the countries law? A nonsense to make any excuses…they made a lot of $$$$ from the scam.
Comment by barry — August 26, 2008 @ 10:42 am
Bunch of wankers!
Watch out for the porn addicts at Hill$ong.
Comment by Hill$ong — August 26, 2008 @ 11:52 am
RichoFJ, I have found that people in the ‘heavy metal club’ are often more honest and hungry than pew warmers. Yes they have been forgotten on mass-told to conform to a conservative image and culture-this is wrong! don’t tell me it doesn’t happen on mass-it does.
Why should we be incouraged to be like the people on the stage-since when has becoming a pastor the most important thing for a young person?. This kind of philosophy is rampant in the church. Be a youth leader-then ‘progress’ to church ‘staff’ then to being the new fad cool preacher, then to executive minister, then finally to Senior Pastor.
After a while you sell a few books and tapes and then you hit the road and become a travelling evangelist-get a tv show, big church.
I know this doesn’t happen for many-but it seem to be highly desired-idol worship.
I have been in the pentecostal church for over 20 years-yes I love the emphasis on trying to be like the early church and operating in the gifts of the Holy spirit and yes there are many wondeful people-and yes I have seen God truely do wonderful things.
Most unfortunately, as in the Catholic and high ‘culture’ churches, people have been brainwashed into cult of personality style church authority system-which is what I am questioning.
The problem is the church as a whole has been corrupted by materialism and a hierarchical model of leadership that picks and chooses what to take from the Mosaic system and transliterate it into a materialistc form of NT governance.
What I look for in a church isn’t perfection-we are human and will not find this in humans, what I look for is a body of people who actually do things in accordance to scripture-not someone’s interpretation of someone’s interpretation of scripture.
Where there is actually accountability-and no, a pastor saying he is accountable only to a higher pastor or church board is rubbish-find me this in scripture-it’s a business model, man made and flawed.
Isn’t it ignorant for so many people to congregate in one place rather than spreading out into the world-like we were told to do. Big churches are mearly a reflection of the human desire to build Babel again and again.
Isn’t it a display of ignorance and naivity for so many people to be conned?
As for the music-I hate hearing people constantly tell average musicians that they are the best in the country, that they are the pinnacle-they are not. Most of them are very average and play a form of music that is bound by conservativism-why would God possibly want to move through that. read about how the Israelites worshipped-to a frenzied state-oh you can’t do that people might get uncomfortable.
I think it is disgusting that worship music has been placed in a position of monopoly while wonderful christian muso’s in all other genre’s have to struggle and be accepted by the world because the church isn’t interested-shame they haven’t realised that ‘other’ genres are doing the evangelism and ‘worship’ is doing the banking.
My church recently recorded a worship cd-why? do we actually need another one? And at the same time we were asked for more money for a kids building-yet it was fine to do the cd first-which really only benefits the reputation of a select few.
I had pressure put on me to buy one by a pastor, when I replied i wasn’t interested and I thought the mixing was poor-I was given the cold shoulder, especially after I asked when they were going to promote my bands records which have sold all over the world and been review well in the harshness of the secular industry-I just got silence and-’We suport you’.
No you don’t-you say it to cover the fact you hate what i do because it doesn’t fit into the superstar christian mold.
We serve a limitless God and I play a limitless for of music to praise Him-shame the church is bound by just feeling safe and nice. In my church, I have to say the worship leader is up himself something horrid-like the guys from Oxford Falls-totally self absorbed and materialistc-and average.
I remember one of their key youth worship leaders telling my bass player that K-Mart clothes aren’t good enough-shame that my bass player at the time was on a disability pension-and is exraordinarily gifted.
Image is everything-I have never seen any muso for any of these bigger churches wearing clothes that actually represent who they really are-just what they are told to be like.
This is happening at my church thanks to this model-where these clothes or don’t play-I thought God looks at the heart. ‘We want a pro image’ really, I thought a true one would be more up God’s alley.
I have performed on stage with Ruban Morgan-average at best and very poor and leading anything other than conservative emotion. yet people idolise this guy-he’s anointed, don’t speak against him-what crap-call average for what it is-average. The Bible doesn’t say I can’t criticise.
If you think that not criticising leads to unity-you are wrong-it leads to heresy and materialism and average, because it has not been made accountable-not brought into question.
Mike G is the perfect example of this flaw.
I know you want to say-’Judge not lest you be judged’ or your bitter because-no i am not-I am successful without the help or support of my church.
But the Bible doesn;t say not to test things. As for the Edge’s or Hillsong’s -they have been found wanting and need to be brought into question-and yes they are accountable to the people.
We can’t keep retreating into our righteous shells and not face the problems. If a large system of supposed ‘anointed’ ‘leaders’ didn’t pick up on this-or other scams-WHY ARE CONSIDERED ANOINTED?
No one here is questioning God-we are question humans.
Comment by FraDolcino — August 26, 2008 @ 12:03 pm
This couldn’t have happened to a better denomination.
All of the churches I either went to or visited were littered with hypocrites and liars but none so vain and so untouchable as those in Pentecostal congregations.
Just keep looking in awe at the “signs & wonders”, making your leaders superstars, getting drunk on the spiritual milk and saying that “Jesus is my buddy”.
This matter will be spun into insignificance and will return to the status quo once the heat has blown off. The churches involved have too much cash to lose from this bad PR.
Religion is the opiate for the masses.
Comment by Kwerk — August 26, 2008 @ 1:08 pm
JUST to be FAIR!
What happened can happen any church, and happened in other denominations!
The thing is who is in the picture is Jesus or man..
Now when Jesus saw a crowd around Him, He gave orders to depart to the other side of the sea.Mt “8:18″
Can we have Christ-like attitude, as people of influence in church…or do we dell and feed on the crowd attention?!!
“”Mt 18:6.. but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”"
If he inspired “millions” of young/old people.
I wonder how many ANTI CHRIST would rise because of what happened…
ALL churches what would you do(+4GIVENESS)to help for this not to happen again?!!?!
“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me’ “”JESUS THE CHRIST”"
Comment by MAN — August 26, 2008 @ 4:53 pm
JL, when lies and deception runs in the family, and other examples are being provided, you still claim that it’s unfair and uncalled for?
Step into reality. Seriously. When patterns are there and examples brought to light, see them for what they are instead of screaming that it’s unfair.
What this “pastor” did to us was unfair. Other things his family have been involved in were unfair. It is NOT unfair when we discuss them so that we can learn not to trust in untrustworthy people.
The Bible warns us about false teachers. It sounds like you would call that unfair too.
Comment by Anon — August 26, 2008 @ 6:05 pm
Hmm maybe his wife didn’t know.
Comment by Anon — August 27, 2008 @ 9:06 am
The problem pentecostal churches have (and I have been in one for over 20 years) is that they access popular culture far better than most. The good looks fake-the bad so terrible.
We can’t discount the fact that God does regularly move in a powerful way in pentecostal churches ( not saying he doesn’t in others), but the problem that has been exposed here is inherant to ALL churches.
The Catholic Church is an obvious and easy target, what about the Anglican Church? Rowan Wiliams has to be the biggest heretic on planet earth-leading many away from the true reading and application of God’s word. All based on faithless legalism.
Baptists-hire and fire! Here we have a terrible system that puts power in the hands of elders and creates hired guns for pastors-no real correction or guidance can be germinated in ths environment. If a congregation is heretical-good luck in bringing correction.
Uniting church-do we need to take aim at the master compromisers ( yes I know there is a faithful remnant). Let’s accept homosexuality-even though it is prohibited by scripture.
All denominations have a lot of horrible things in common-and all of these problems revolve around men ( and occasionally women) who refuse to accept God’s word as is-and ignore some parts while embracing others.
I think that if you examined the major denominations you probably could assign a ‘deadly sin’ to the character of each!
The acid test-do the things Jesus did and represent occur in Church?
We have all sinned and fallen so very very short of His Glory. But in saying this-it’s time for God’s millionaires to give away all their riches, the buildings to be sold, bank balances emptied, assets liquidated-and used to feed the poor, help the widow etc etc etc.
Penatenziagite!
Comment by FraDolcino — August 27, 2008 @ 1:55 pm
All churches have flaws..not just the Pentecostal.. as well as Me & U. BUT beloved Hmmmm, I think U R missing the point here…
- Unfortunately people in Authority or(influence) can not avoid the SEVERE consequences of their action…(lucky I am not a leader)
———————————————————————–
They need to be 4given but as in the story of David…
- THE SWORD never departed from his house, (Amnon, Abshalum)
- Porno (Lust) (Adultery) never left his house(Thamar, Abshalum )
“This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.”
Isn’t that very harsh from the God of all mercies..?!
BUT LISTEN TO THIS
“12:13
Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. you r not going to die”
12:14
But because by doing this you have MADE THE ENEMIES OF THE LORD show utter contempt, the son born to you will die.”
I think if I were god at that time, I would’ve really forgave him…
- Israel was divided severely as a consequence of his action….(not simple)
and much much more….
Very sad isn’t it??? BUT it is the truth….
We R called to 4give the Porn Addict, as well as the deceivers, and ourselves as we can also be deceived by deceivers that the bible has warned about…..
————————————————————————–
SAMSON for example…you know what happened to Samson, when he disgraced his God’s Name…..he was severely humiliated….and the amount of humility that he brought to God’s name….
DU KNOW what the enemies said…”Our god has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hands.”…….SHAME ON SHAMSON….
WHAT I LOVE ABOUT THE BIBLE IS THAT IT SAYS THE TRUTH ALL TRUTH..DOES NOT HIDE
But if we are a lie we will hide it….
—————————————————————–
thats what happened to real prophets of God, and if they are not from the first place, why would be any consequences….
——————————————————————
Jesus Asked us 2 4give everyone…But …in
John 2:12-22
14. In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. (DID JESUS 4GAVE THEM?? I BET HE DID) 15. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.
Where is the forgiveness of Jesus..the life giver and the sin forgiver????
16. To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! HOW DARE YOU turn my Father’s house into a market…..
also Jesus said “WATCH OUT for FALSE prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but INWARDLY they are FEROCIOUS WOLVES.”
Even though he taught to forgive, but that did not stop him from telling us to watch out from the wolves….GRACE doesn’t null the truth…Never
————————————————————————
The problem is we preach an incomplete “false” gospel, teaches forgiveness priceless…which is not true, our forgiveness is way too expensive to be taken 4granted….
Comment by MAN — August 27, 2008 @ 11:01 pm
The world is dumming down because some savy business men with a 6 week course in theology and years of psychology. Wake up!There individually worth millions and spending your hard earned money on porn. With so much information out there how can you all be suckers? Are you intellectually impared or emotionally bankrupt? Grow up
Comment by jacky — August 28, 2008 @ 8:43 pm
1) The following are the proves that angels could perform miracles healing and there are falling angels in the Scripture to be against God too:
John 5:3-4, “In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.”
2) The following are the proves that Angels could perform marvellous wonders:
Luke 1:7, “And they had no child, because that Elizabeth was barren and they both were now well stricken in years.” Luke 1:13, “but the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for their prayer is heard; and they wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John”. Luke 1:18, “And Zacharias said unto the angel, ‘Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my life well stricken in years.” Luke 1:19, “And THE ANGEL ANSWERING UNTO HIM, I AM GRABRIEL…” Luke 1:20, “AND BEHOLD, THOU SHALL BE DUMB, AND NOT ABLE TO SPEAK, UNTIL THE DAY THAT THESE THINGS SHALL BE PERFORMED, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.” Luke 1:22, “And when he came out, HE COULD NOT SPEAK UNTO THEM”.
Matthews 28:1-2, “Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Many Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And, behold, THERE WAS A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, FOR AN ANGEL OF THE LORD DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN, AND ROLLED BACK THE STONE OF THE DOOR, and sat it.”
Acts 12:23, “Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.”
3) Angels could appear in somebody’s dream:
Matthews 2:19, “…an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph…”; Matthew 1:20, “…an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream…”
As angels could perform wonders, are there any strongest proves to show that those wonders in contemporary Charismatic Churches are from God? If someone in contemporary Charismatic Church could prove it, we have to accept it. However, if nobody could prove whether the existence of wonder in contemporary Charismatic Churches is from God or the Holy Spirit or Angels, there is a danger that one would comment that certain wonders are from God or from the Holy Spirit or from Jesus Christ and, in case if they are not and it would turn up that we have forced God or Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit to bear the name of doer and indirectly we have abused the name of Jesus Christ or God or the Holy Spirit and this causes us to speak against Jesus Christ or God or the Holy Spirit indirectly.
Could contemporary Charismatic Church claim that the miracles and wonder they perform in the name of Jesus Christ, is accompanied by correct teaching (in accordance with God’s Word) and righteous living?
A good Christian performs a wonder through the name of Jesus Christ in the Church. Many audiences would claim that this be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit. As fallen angels could perform wonders, i.e. Buddhists could perform wonders as it is listed in the Internet too. What if the wonders in contemporary Charismatic churches are not from God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit, the surrounding audience that claims to be the work of the Holy Spirit/God/Jesus Christ, would have indirectly abused the name of each of them even though they might not be the one to do it and it indirectly causes the defamation of the name of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit and they might have grieved as a result of the whole church speaking against them since they might not do it. The abusing of the name of Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit/God would cause the audience to commit continual sins as when and they address these be the work of God.
Can a Christian or a Catholics claim that he has followed the correct teaching and righteous living when day by day and month by month and year by year seeing people keep on claiming the wonders in contemporary Charismatic Churches to be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit without telling them the danger that they would have sinned against God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit what if the so-called, wonders, might not be their work then?
For holy bark, you could see people running around the churches crazily to bark here and there.
For Holy laughter, you could see people laugh without stopping.
For manifestation of the Spirit, you see people roll from one place to another without knowing what he/she has done after performing.
All these are not mentioned in the book of Acts.
A number of people in the church mention that they receive revelation from God through words of knowledge, prophecy, tongues speaking, words of wisdom. Many prophets arose previously claimed that year 2000 and 1987 were the end of the world. However, the year before year 2000 and 1987, none of these people that claim to receive so-called, special gifts of the Holy Spirit, say that these years 2000 and 1987 are not the end of the world. If it is the work of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit should have informed all these people to correct their mistakes.
LUKE 9:49-50 ABOUT THOSE THAT DO NOT FOLLOW JESUS BUT COULD PERFORM WONDERS IN JESUS’ NAME
Luke 9:49, 50 (TCNT), “Hereupon John said: “Sir, we saw a man driving out demons by using your name, and we tried to prevent him, because he does not follow you with us.” “None of you must prevent him,” Jesus said to John; “he who is not against you is for you.”
Were these people that were mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 to be the disciples of Jesus since it is mentioned that they did not follow Jesus?
The following are the verses to prove that God’s people would surely follow Jesus:
John 10:27, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”
John 10:3, “To him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own sheep by nam, and leadeth them out”.
From the above verses, it is obvious that the sheep will surely follow the shepherd, Jesus.
As the phrase, he is not against you is for you, is mentioned in Luke 9:49 instead of the phrase, he is not against you is for me Jesus, it does not show that all these people that could use Jesus to perform miracles were for Jesus but for us, disciples, especially Jesus had mentioned clearly in John 10:27 and 10:3 that Christians would surely follow Jesus. The possible interpetation for Luk 9:49 for him to mention that they were for us that it might be that they could assist us in bringing outsiders to the attention of Jesus Christ for our evangelism. However, they are not for Jesus since they do not follow Jesus since they would definitely follow Jesus if they are for Jesus.
Indeed the people as mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 that could perform wonders in Jesus’s name were not God’s people or else Jesus should have included these people ont top of the twelve disciples. Or in other words, if these people that could perform wonders in Jesus’ name were God’s people, there would be more that twelve disciples instead of remaining to be twelve all the time during Jesus’ mission and it proves the fact that Jesus’ name could be abused to perform miracles. Or in other words, despite these people as mentioned in Luke 9:49-50 were not following Jesus and were not the disciples of Jesus, they could use Jesus’ name to perform wonders.
CASTING OUT DEMONS MIGHT NOT NECESSARILY CAUSE ONE TO HAVE DISTURBED BY DEMONS AS MENTIONED IN ACTS 19:13-16:
Matthew 17:15-16, “Lord have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.” Matthew 17:18-19, “And Jesus rebuked the devil and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, ‘Why could not we cast him out?’ ” Matthew 17:21, “Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.” From these verses, it is obvious that the failure in casting out demons might not necessarily cause one to be disturbed by demons as that is mentioned in Luke 9:49-50.
PROOF THAT ANGELS COULD PERFORM MIRACULOUS HEALING AND THERE ARE FALLEN ANGELS TOO:
John 5:3-4, “In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.””
From John 5:3-4, it shows that angels could heal various kinds of illnesses whether they are blinded, halt and withered. As angels could perform miraculous healings and there are so-called, fallen angels, it is irrational to jump into conclusion that certain illnesses be healed to be the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit since some wonders might be the work of angels and/or fallen angels.
One might have quoted Luke 9:49-50 well that nobody should stop those people that perform miracles in Jesus’ name. However, he should meditate Matthew 7:22-23 carefully again that the so-called people to use Jesus’ name to perform wonders might be rejected by the Lord. For instance, if these people that are mentioned in Matthew 7:22-23 to use Jesus’ name to perform wonders are the work of God/Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit, there should not be any strong ground for Jesus to reject them. However, Jesus will reject them despite they do perform wonders in Jesus’ name and there is a query the so-called wonders that they perform are from God. The following are the extracts:
Matthew 7:22-23, “Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise lawlessness!’
Comment by Jonathan CHM — July 27, 2009 @ 10:39 am